[資訊整理] 張忠謀與蔡崇信談中美脫鉤 – 逐字稿
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Last Updated on 2023-11-09
摩爾定律失效後台積電應該如何前進？蔡崇信如何從律師轉進金融領域？張忠謀怎麼看中美脫鉤？本文整理張忠謀與蔡崇信對談逐字稿，帶你一次看。
台積電創辦人張忠謀和阿里巴巴董事會主席蔡崇信，在2023年10月26日於美國紐約，以「在分裂的世界中如何領導」為題分享，內容主要在討論中美脫鉤局勢，另外張忠謀也談到台積電創辦歷程、未來如何前進，蔡崇信則分享自己進軍金融與體育界的過程，兩位也都提到他們眼中理想的領導者特質。
原始對談影片如下：Leadership in a Fragmenting World: Morris Chang of TSMC and Joe Tsai of Alibaba Group
本場分享共有三位與談人，分別是劉宏敏（Ida Liu，花旗私人銀行全球總裁）、張忠謀（Morris Chang，台積電創辦人）和蔡崇信（Joe Tsai，阿里巴巴董事會主席），由劉宏敏主持，以下為中英對照的逐字稿全文。
張忠謀談創辦台積電歷程
Ida Liu
Hello and good afternoon. Welcome, everyone. I am so incredibly privileged and honored to be on the stage today with two extraordinary icons, Dr. Morris Chang and Joe Tsai, who have both founded and created extraordinary, powerful companies, Alibaba and TSMC, with a combined market cap today of over $625 billion. Extraordinary. And so today, I thought we would start the conversation with you, Dr. Chang. You were born in China and you lived in Hong Kong, but educated in the U.S. at MIT and also at Stanford. For those of us in the room who haven’t had the pleasure of reading your wonderful biography, tell us, what was the vision behind starting TSMC in Taiwan?
您好，午安。歡迎各位。我非常榮幸能與兩位非凡的偶像，張忠謀博士和蔡崇信同台。他們兩人都創立非凡且強大的公司，阿里巴巴和台積電，今日的市值總和超過6250億美元。非凡的成就。我想我們可以可以從您，張博士開始對話。您在中國出生並在香港生活，但在美國的麻省理工學院和史丹福大學接受教育。對於我們在場的人來說，還沒有閱讀您精彩的傳記，請告訴我們，創立台灣積體電路製造公司（TSMC）的初衷是什麼？
Morris Chang
Well, at the time I started TSMC, I had been in the semiconductor business for almost 30 years already. I was at Texas Instruments. I started at a company called Sylvania, the semiconductor division of Sylvania. And then I went to Texas Instruments in 1958, when I was 27 years old. And as Ida just said, I had a master’s, bachelor’s and master’s degree already. But about two or three years after I got to Texas Instruments, they appreciated me enough to send me to Stanford to get my Ph.D. on full salary and full expenses. They paid the tuition, they paid the miscellaneous expenses, and they gave me full salary. In fact, I also had the opportunity to go to technical meetings at TI’s expense. Anyway, it was a good opportunity. So I went to Stanford to get my Ph.D. And in return for all this, of course, I had to commit myself to work five years at least in TI after I got my Ph.D. Well, it turned out that I worked 20 years more. So altogether, from the beginning to the end, I worked at TI for 25 years.
當我開始創立台積電的時候，我已經在半導體業界待了將近30年。我曾在德州儀器工作。我在希凡尼亞（Sylvania）開始我的職業生涯，當時在希凡尼亞的半導體部門。然後在1958年，27歲那年去了德州儀器。正如Ida剛剛所說，我已經擁有學士和碩士學位，但是在我到達德州儀器大約兩三年後，他們對我非常欣賞，因此贊助我全薪並支付到史丹福大學攻讀博士學位的所有費用，包含學費、雜費，還給我全額薪水。事實上，我還有機會以德州儀器的費用去參加技術會議。總之，這是一個很好的機會。所以我去了史丹福攻讀我的博士學位。而作為回報，我必須承諾在獲得博士學位後至少在德州儀器工作五年。嗯，結果我工作了多出20年的時間。所以從頭到尾，我在德州儀器工作了25年。
Anyway, then TI, for various reasons, started to go downhill. Not my fault, okay. Because they went into a different business, a different business than a business that they were successful in, which was the semiconductor business. So instead of just staying fast in the semiconductor business, they went into consumer products business, calculators, digital watches. And finally, worst of all, disastrously, they went into the so-called home computer business. Anyway, for all those reasons, TI went downhill. And also, the U.S. This was in the early 80s already. In the U.S., I think, was losing its competitive advantages in chips manufacturing. So at about that time, there was an interlude in another company where I was the president. But it wasn’t a very good fit for me either.
無論如何，德州儀器由於各種原因開始走下坡。這不是我的錯（全場大笑）。他們在半導體已經取得成功，卻仍去拓展不同的業務。德州儀器沒有選擇在半導體保持快速發展，選擇進入消費品業務，生產計算機、數位手錶，還有災難性的家用電腦業務。由於所有這些原因，德州儀器開始走下坡。大約在80年代初期，我認為美國失去其製造晶片的競爭優勢。當時有段小插曲，我在另一家公司擔任總裁1，但那份工作並不適合我。
So at that point, the Taiwan government asked me to head up their research institute, Industrial Technology Research Institute. And while there, while I was there, the Taiwan government also wanted me to start a semiconductor company. So with all the semiconductor experience already behind me, I decided that it would be suicidal for Taiwan, for me, to start a semiconductor company in Taiwan at that time. And it was 1985. At that time, it was suicidal to start a normal, standard, IDM company in Taiwan. We would have to compete with the likes of Texas Instruments, Intel, National, Fairchild, all these established companies, not to mention Japanese companies.
恰巧也是同時，台灣政府邀請我擔任他們的研究機構，工業技術研究院的主管。在我任職期間，台灣政府也希望我能創立一間半導體公司。憑藉我的半導體經驗，我認為在當時的台灣創立一家半導體公司將是自殺行為。那時候是1985年，想創立一間正規、標準的整合元件製造商（IDM，Integrated Device Manufacturer），簡直就是自尋死路。我們將不得不與德州儀器、英特爾、國家半導體、菲爾半導體等，已經打下基礎的企業競爭，更別提市場上還有日本企業。
So instead of using the standard business model, which was to do everything from design to wafer chip manufacturing to sales marketing. So I looked at the whole picture and decided that Taiwan has had competitive advantages. And I will not go into what those were at that time, but maybe later, maybe. Yeah. Competitive advantages just in the chips manufacturing part of this chain. So we started this new business model of being just a foundry, which is just the manufacturing, wafer manufacturing, chips manufacturing part of the then standard model, standard business model of design and manufacturing, so on. Now, anyway, and we were successful. And that was, we started, we began raising funds and so on in 1985. And we officially started operation in 1987. And so it has been 36 years now, and we’ve been quite successful. And we became, in fact, the largest manufacturing company. And I think, I’m not sure how our revenue compares with all the other semiconductor companies, but we are among the top. TSMC will have a revenue of something like $60, $70 billion. So we are among the top there.
所以，我們選擇不使用標準的商業模式－也就是包辦設計、晶圓製造、再到行銷與銷售等所有流程。我看了整個大局，並找到台灣具有競爭優勢的切入點。我現在不會進一步講述當時見到的優勢，也許稍後會提到。總之，在半導體的生產鏈中，台灣只在晶片製造具有競爭優勢，因此，我們開始了這種新的商業模式，只做晶圓代工，也就是只做製造晶圓的業務。我們就這樣開始只做代工的新商業模式，現在來看，我們取得成功。我們在1985年進行募資，1987年正式開始營運。至今已經36年，我們相當成功。事實上，我們已經成為最大的製造商。我想，我不確定我們的收入與其他半導體公司相比如何，但我們是頂尖的其中之一。台積電的收入將達到大約600億、700億美元。我們位於在頂尖之列。
蔡崇信談進入阿里巴巴過程
Ida Liu
I think Dr. Chang is being quite modest when he says that. It is the company in the world. So congratulations. And Joe, you have a similar story in that you’re a Taiwanese-Canadian, but you were also educated in the US, right? You went to Lawrenceville, Yale, Yale Law, and then you went to the legal industry before dabbling in private equity. So how did you get into Alibaba? How did you find this, found this new company with Jack Ma?
我認為張博士在說這話時相當謙虛。這是世界級別的公司。Joe，你也有類似的故事，你是台灣裔加拿大人，但也在美國接受教育，對吧？你去了勞倫斯維爾，耶魯，耶魯法學院，然後你在涉足私募股權投資之前，你在法律行業工作。那麼，你是如何進入阿里巴巴的？你是如何找到這家由馬雲創立的新公司的？
Joe Tsai
I just realized I took the wrong turn and went legal instead of doing chips or computer science. But I was born in Taiwan, grew up there until I was 13. And then my parents sent me to school in the United States. In fact, Dr. Chang just earlier today reminded me that when he got to Taiwan, one of the first people he met was my father, who was a lawyer that represented Texas Instruments.
我剛剛才意識到我走錯了路，選擇了法律而非晶片製造或電腦科學。但我在台灣出生，並在那裡長大到13歲。然後我的父母送我到美國上學。事實上，張博士就在今天稍早提醒我，當他來到台灣時，他遇到的第一個人就是我的父親，他是代表德州儀器公司的律師。
Morris Chang
Small world. The first person, actually. The first person. Because he was standing at the end of the back then there was no walkway, you know what I mean? Right. The staircase.
世界真是太小了，（蔡崇信的父親）真的是我在台灣遇到的第一個人，當時他站在樓梯上。
Joe Tsai
Staircase. Below the plane.
樓梯。在平面之下。
Morris Chang
He was standing right there, you know.
他就站在那裡，你知道的。
Joe Tsai
Exactly. So and then he also reminded me that I have an uncle who worked at Intel Motorola and had a lot of chip patents under his name. And Dr. Chang tried to hire my Uncle Roger.
沒錯。然後他也提醒我，我有一位叔叔曾在英特爾摩托羅拉工作，並在他的名下擁有許多晶片專利。張博士曾試圖聘請我的叔叔羅傑。
Morris Chang
Unsuccessfully.
但我沒有成功。
Joe Tsai
So you can imagine as a kid growing up in Taiwan, Dr. Chang is just the role model and iconic person. So I’m absolutely honored to share the same stage with Dr. Chang today.
所以你可以想像，作為在台灣長大的孩子，張博士就是我的榜樣和象徵性人物。所以我今天能與張博士共享同一個舞台，我感到非常榮幸。
Morris Chang
You’re supposed to tell your story.
你應該要說出你的故事。
Joe Tsai
And Ida, what was the question?
Ida，問題是什麼呢？
Morris Chang
US education and how.
美國的教育以及你如何轉向。
Ida Liu
How did you come about moving and pivoting from private equity and a legal background into founding this company with Jack?
您是如何從私募股權和法律背景轉型，與Jack一起創立這家公司的？
Joe Tsai
So the lawyers don’t make any decisions. Lawyers only advise. Advise people. So I wanted to get into a role where I can actually be involved in decision making. And that’s why I went into private equity for someone with a legal background to go into private equity was fairly adjacent, I would say, because lawyers have to do documents and in these M&A transactions and things like that. So and then from private equity, I just I got lucky. I met Jack Ma in 1999 through a friend’s introduction. Another friend from Taiwan. And and then I went to his second floor apartment in these this unit called the Lakeside Gardens. And it was a room full of young, fresh face, wide eyed people that are following Jack. They’re sort of the disciples of Jack. And and and that was the rest was history.
律師並不做任何決定。律師只是提供建議。給人們建議。所以我想要參與一個我可以真正參與決策的角色。這就是我為何投身私募股權的原因，對於有法律背景的人來說，私募股權領域是相當近的領域，因為律師需要處理文件，並參與這些併購交易等事務。然後轉向私募股權，我只是運氣好。我在1999年透過一位朋友的介紹遇到了馬雲。我造訪了他位於湖畔花園的二樓公寓。那是一個充滿年輕、面容新鮮、眼神明亮的人們的房間，他們都在追隨馬雲。他們有點像是馬雲的門徒。然後，接下來的事情就是歷史了。
蔡崇信談中美脫鉤
Ida Liu
Incredible. Wow. Well, I think it’s safe to say that everyone that we speak to these days, particularly the large CEOs around the world, the number one thing on their mind is the decoupling of U.S. and China and the bifurcation of the two countries. Where do you see that headed, Joe? I’ll start with you.
令人難以置信。哇。嗯，我認為可以肯定地說，我們現在與之交談的每一個人，特別是全球的大型公司CEO，他們最關心的第一件事就是美國和中國的脫鉤以及兩國的二元分化。你認為這會如何發展，Joe？我先問你。
Joe Tsai
I think there’s a couple of reasons for that’s driving the decoupling. I think governments nowadays around the world, not just U.S. and China, but governments around the world are worried about security, national security. And also they’re worried about digital security. So when you go to Europe, people talk about digital sovereignty, making sure that their citizens and their data privacy is protected. And for for those reasons, I think supply chain is now being decoupled. And and also in the digital world, we actually see a lot of fragmentation in the digital world.
我認為有幾個原因驅動了這種脫鉤。我認為現今全球的政府，不僅是美國和中國，而是全世界的政府都在擔心安全問題，國家安全問題。他們也擔心數位安全。因此，當你去歐洲時，人們會談論數位主權，確保他們的公民和他們的數據隱私受到保護。基於這些原因，我認為供應鏈現在正在進行脫鉤。而且，在數位世界中，我們實際上看到了許多的社會分裂。
張忠謀談中美脫鉤
Ida Liu
Morris, any thoughts on that?
Morris，對此有何想法？
Morris Chang
Well, I think the best book that I have read on this phenomenon was probably Graham Allison’s book. I think that I forgot the title. I remember the subtitle. It was, you know, situation where the existing power, which is the United States, is confronting the emerging power, which is China. And Graham Allison actually, I believe he conduct, he is a professor at Harvard Kennedy School, and I believe that he actually conducted a class five years, for five years, he studied the examples of the Thucydides trap. And for the last 500 years, I believe, the class, they found something like 18 examples where an existing power confronted an emerging power. And in those 18 cases, 12 of them resulted in war, and six, however, however, did not, the most recent of the six that did not result in war was, for instance, the Cold War, Soviet Union and U.S., it was this Cold War. Now, but of course, now you said decoupling. Now, yes, we can see it. Now, and our only hope, my only hope, our only hope is that it doesn’t lead into anything even more serious, even more serious.
嗯，我認為我讀過的關於這種現象最好的書2，可能是格雷厄姆・艾利森的書。我想我忘記了書名。我記得那個副標題，他在描述現有大國（美國）正在面對新興大國（中國）的情形。艾利森是哈佛甘迺迪學院的教授，他開了一堂研究修昔底德陷阱的課程，在開課的五年之間，他分析過去500年間的18個例子，都是現有大國面對新興大國的狀況。而在這18個案例中，有12個發生戰爭，另外6個沒有發生，最近一個沒有發生戰爭的例子是冷戰嚇得蘇聯和美國。你提到脫鉤。現在我們可以看到脫鉤正在發生，我們唯一的希望就是，企盼脫鉤不會導致任何更嚴重的事情。
Ida Liu
And Dr. Chang, on that point, do you see an impact already on some of the technological innovation and newness that’s happening in the region because of this bifurcation and decoupling?
張博士，關於這一點，您是否已經看到這種分裂和脫鉤，對這些地區技術創新和新事物的影響？
Morris Chang
Well, I think that decoupling will ultimately slow down everybody. Of course, the purpose of it is, the immediate purpose, of course, is to slow China down, and I think it’s doing that. I’m specifically talking about chips, of course. I don’t know some of the other areas. Well, chips, I think the immediate purpose of decoupling is to slow China down, and I think it’s doing that. Ultimately, I think, maybe, let’s say maybe, I think, ultimately, I think it will be harmful to everybody, you know. I mean, I think the world, if we all work together, maybe it will progress faster.
嗯，我認為脫鉤最終會使每個人都放慢腳步。當然，它即刻的目的，當然是為了讓中國放慢腳步，我認為它正在做到這一點。我特別指稱晶片領域，我不知道其他領域有沒有發生，但脫鉤有讓中國在晶片領域放慢腳步。
不過，我認為或許最終脫鉤對每個人都有害，我認為如果全世界一起努力，也許進步會更快。
— 張忠謀（2023）
蔡崇信談亞洲市場重要性
Ida Liu
Indeed. Joe, investor sentiment into the region, into Asia, has been quite challenged recently. What would you say that we should be thinking about to make sure we don’t lose that dynamism in the region? How can we gain back that investor confidence into the region?
確實。Joe，近期投資者對亞洲地區的情緒相當受挑戰。你認為我們應該考慮什麼，以確保我們不會失去該地區的活力？我們該如何重新贏得投資者對該地區的信心？
Joe Tsai
I think Asia is a big place, but I think a lot of the cultures in Asia are quite similar in that people are industrious, and these economies have provided very high levels of education to the population. So for investors, the question you should ask investors is, do you want to bet against people in Asia, right? People who are hardworking and who are educated. And it’s a place that people have to be, because I think you talk about dynamism. I think Asia is still a very dynamic place. I think we’ve seen a slowdown in China of the economy, but there’s a ton of industrious people, hardworking people, working on new technologies, working on the fact that China today is the largest manufacturing country in the world.
我認為亞洲是一個很大的地方，但我認為亞洲的許多文化在人們勤奮工作，以及這些經濟體為人口提供非常高水平的教育方面相當相似。所以對投資者來說，你應該問的問題是，你是否想要與亞洲人競爭，對吧？那裡有著努力工作且受過教育的人。當你在談論活力的時候，亞洲就是你想鎖定的地方。亞洲仍然充滿活力，即便中國經濟放緩，但仍有大量勤奮的人努力工作、研究新技術。事實上，中國現在是世界上最大的製造業國家。
And in the future, I still see China as being a manufacturing powerhouse. Maybe not to the extent of making very high-end chips, because that takes time to acquire the know-how. But just to share demographics of China, you’re looking at about 800 million people that are in the labor force, and 200 of them are highly educated, highly skilled labor. There’s also a vocational school system. At lunchtime, we talked about vocational schools. People that are working on the shop floors, that are engineering supervisors, that could make things. So I think Asia continues to be a dynamic place, because culturally, people are hardworking and very entrepreneurial.
未來，我仍然把中國看成製造業強國。也許沒辦法製造非常先進的晶片，因為那需要時間累積專業知識。但僅就中國的人口結構來說，大約有8億人口處於勞動力階段。其中2億人受過高等教育，都是高技能的勞動力。這裡也有職業學校系統。午餐時我們談論了職業學校，最後會成為工廠作業員、工程監督，商品製造者。我認為亞洲仍然充滿活力，因為在文化上，人們勤奮且富有創業精神。
張忠謀談亞洲教育與美國教育
Ida Liu
On the topic of education, if you could just spend a moment with me on that, because Dr. Chang, you said in your book, and also I read, that one of the reasons that you moved to Taiwan, in addition to the government asking you to go there, was that there’s a lot of talent there. You saw a lot of talented individuals that could really help you build the business that you were looking to build. So talk to me a little bit about your views of education in Asia versus education in the U.S., which you both had the pleasure of attending.
在教育這個議題上，希望您能與我花一點時間討論，因為張博士，您在書中提到移居台灣的原因之一，除了政府邀請您以外，還因為那裡有許多人才。你看到很多有才華的人才，他們真的可以幫助你建立你想要建立的業務。所以，請跟我稍微談談你對亞洲教育與美國教育的看法，你們兩位都有幸參與過。
Morris Chang
Well, when I said there was a lot of talent, I meant specifically manufacturing talent. In manufacturing, you really don’t need very many geniuses. You don’t need very many innovative thinkers. Yeah, you need a few, but not very many. But you need a lot of people who are disciplined, who know their specific trade, repair and maintenance people, supervisory, production supervisors, and production engineers. So in Taiwan, they have a lot of trade schools. Those are for people who don’t get to go to colleges. There’s an examination after high school graduation, and only 20 or 30 percent of people pass the exam. Only 20 or 30 percent of high school graduates get to go to the colleges, the general purpose colleges. But most of the rest can go to these trade schools, three-year trade schools, five-year trade schools, and they learn specific skills which allow them really to get pretty good jobs after they graduate from the trade school. So that’s one advantage that the Taiwan education system does have.
嗯，當我說有很多才華橫溢的人時，我特別指的是製造業的人才。在製造業中，你真的不需要太多的天才。你並不需要太多的創新思考者。你需要一些，但不需要太多；你需要特定行業裡大量有紀律的人，修理和維護的人員、監工、生產監督者和生產工程師。在台灣有很多職業學校，給那些無法進入大學的人。高中畢業後只有20或30%的人能通過升學考試、進入一般性的大學。大部分的人可以進入這些職業學校，包含三專和五專，他們在那裡學習特定的技能，他們在畢業後能夠找到相當不錯的工作。這就是台灣教育制度所擁有的一個優勢。
蔡崇信談亞洲教育與美國教育
Ida Liu
Joe, any thoughts on education?
Joe，對教育有什麼看法？
Joe Tsai
Well, two things. I think American schools, whether it’s a high school, boarding school, or university, or master, PhD programs, is still aspirational for most people around the world. Parents still want to send their kids to the United States to be educated here. And that’s because this country has a system that fosters freedom of thinking. So the geniuses, if you will, really can become even better, the elite. I think American universities are very good at training the elite, and people that have graduated from PhD programs from around the world go back to their countries and contribute in a great way. If you look at the heads of major technology companies in the United States, they come from all over the world, and they are beneficiaries of an American high-end education. But these are CEOs. What about the rest, right? What about the kid that kind of went to a liberal arts college and ended up being an Uber driver?
嗯，有兩點。我認為美國的學校，無論是高中、寄宿學校、大學，或是碩士、博士課程，對全世界的大多數人來說，仍然是他們的理想之地。父母們仍然希望將他們的孩子送到美國接受教育。這是因為這個國家有一個能夠培養思考自由的系統。所以，如果你願意的話，天才們真的可以變得更好，成為精英。我認為美國的大學非常擅長培養精英，來自世界各地的博士研究生畢業後會回到他們的國家，並做出重大的貢獻。如果你看看美國主要科技公司的領導者，他們來自全球各地，並且是美國高端教育的受益者。但這些人都是CEO。那麼其他人呢？對吧？那些就讀於文科學院，最後成為Uber司機的孩子們呢？
So the thing that we have talked about at lunchtime is the United States doesn’t have a vocational school program. Even in China, Taiwan has the vocational school program. Even in China, you’re looking at 10 million university graduates every year, but then there’s about 5 million, 5, 6 million of vocational school graduates who they basically have given up going to college in middle school. They don’t even enter into the same kind of competitive examination system to get into high school. So they went on this vocational track. And when you are developing a manufacturing economy, that’s very handy. It’s a benefit to have a population of people who don’t aspire to work on large language models and computer science, but they can work on a shop floor, manufacturing floor, and supervise the work there. So that’s the main difference between the two.
所以我們在午餐時間討論的事情是，美國並沒有職業學校的制度。在中國或者台灣，都有職業學校的制度。中國每年有1000萬名大學畢業生，但還有大約500、600萬的職業學校畢業生，他們基本上在中學時期就已經放棄了上大學。他們甚至不參與同類型的競爭考試系統以進入高中。所以他們選擇了這條職業道路。而當你正在發展製造業經濟時非常方便。擁有一群不渴望從事大型語言模型和電腦科學工作的人口是一種優勢，但他們可以在商店、製造業工作，並監督那裡的工作。這就是兩者（有沒有職校）的主要差異。
Morris Chang
I agree with Joe that the United States really has the best top tier educational institutions. The Ivy League schools, MIT, and so on. No equal. There’s no equal in the world to that tier of education.
我同意喬的觀點，美國真的擁有最頂尖的教育機構。如常春藤聯盟學校，麻省理工學院等等。無出其右。世界上沒有任何教育能與該等級相提並論。
Joe Tsai
We in the legal profession would like to say Yale Law School is a great theoretical school, and the students come out and fail the bar exam. But Harvard Law School is more like a trade school.
我們法律專業人士認為耶魯法學院是一所偉大的理論學校，學生畢業後卻無法通過律師資格考試。但哈佛法學院更像是一所職業學校。
張忠謀對企業領袖的建議
Ida Liu
So over lunch, we were discussing a bit about understanding, about the importance of communication, the way that we can better understand the differences between the countries, to maybe perhaps bring some more convergent ideas together on the table. What would your advice be to other leaders in the U.S., or other CEOs in the U.S., of how to better understand and work with China, and more broadly with Asia?
所以在午餐時，我們稍微討論了一下理解的重要性，關於溝通的重要性，我們如何能更好地理解國與國之間的差異，也許可以將更多的匯聚性想法帶到桌面上。您對美國的其他領導者或CEO有何建議，如何更好地理解和與中國，以及更廣泛地與亞洲合作？
Morris Chang
You’re asking me? Yeah, I certainly would advise them to talk more, and so on. If it’s any use, it’s usually, frankly, unfortunately, particularly if they’re already top people in either business or government, it’s not very useful to give them advice on how to be more cooperative.
你在問我嗎？是的，我確實會建議他們多交談等等，如果這種建議有任何用處的話。不幸的是，特別是如果他們已經是商業或政府的頂尖人物，給他們建議如何更加合作，並不是很有用。
蔡崇信對企業領袖的建議
Ida Liu
Joe, how do we increase the understanding?
喬，我們該如何提升理解力呢？
Joe Tsai
Well, I think it used to be that business people just minded their own business. They have fiduciary obligation to their shareholders, and they say, we just kind of stay out of the press, do our own business, and that’s it. But I think we live in a much more complex geopolitical world, where communication is absolutely important. I think businesses from both U.S. and China need to communicate with each other. Without communication, there’s a lot of room for misunderstanding. And if you have misunderstanding, then you let the lack of trust accumulate, and that could create a lot of conflicts. And so I think it behooves even people in business to travel a lot, talk to different communities in different countries, and share their viewpoints. Even if you argue with each other, I think it’s a good thing. Communication is so key to increasing understanding, which ultimately leads for trust-building and a peaceful world.
以前，商業人士主要專注於自己的業務。他們有責任對股東負責，因此他們會選擇遠離媒體，專心做好自己的業務。但我認為我們現在生活在一個更為複雜的地緣政治世界中，其中溝通非常重要。我認為來自美國和中國的企業需要相互溝通。沒有溝通，就有很多誤解的空間。如果存在誤解，那麼缺乏信任會逐漸積累，這可能會引發許多衝突。因此，我認為即使是商業人士也有必要多加旅行，與不同國家的不同社群進行對話，並分享他們的觀點。即使彼此爭吵，我認為這是一件好事。溝通對於增進理解是如此的重要，這讓我們能夠建立信任和和平的世界。
張忠謀談台積電如何維持領先
Ida Liu
Extremely well said, Joe. Thank you for that. Dr. Chang, I’m going to pivot a little bit, because you at TSMC have developed the most sophisticated, smallest three-nanometer chips in Taiwan. You shared with us over lunch that in Arizona, in the next one or two years, they’re going to catch up with that ability to develop the smallest, most sophisticated chips in the world. Tell us how you think about staying ahead of the curve. How do you continue to do that and have the dominance there? Share with us your vision.
極度贊同你的說法，Joe。感謝你的分享。張博士，我想稍微轉變一下話題，因為你們在台積電已經開發出台灣最先進、最小的三奈米晶片。您在午餐時與我們分享，在亞利桑那州，未來一兩年內，他們將迎頭趕上開發全球最小、最精密的晶片的能力。告訴我們您如何思考保持領先的問題。您如何持續做到這一點並在那裡保持優勢？請與我們分享您的願景。
Morris Chang
Well, in the chip business, there is already, so far, there is a pre-set course for us to follow.And that’s the so-called Moore’s Law. It was just a prediction made by Gordon Moore in 1965. He said that the density of transistors on a chip will double every 18 months. So to double the density, you know, every 18 months to 24 months, you have to make the transistors smaller and smaller and smaller all the time. And that’s why, you know, we have made the transistors from microns, Anyway, but that course has been miraculously effective for the last 50, 60 years.
嗯，在晶片業務中，到目前為止，我們已經有一條預設的路線可以遵循。那就是所謂的摩爾定律。這只是戈登・摩爾在1965年提出的一個預測。他說，晶片上的電晶體密度將每18個月翻倍。所以要每18到24個月就讓密度翻倍，必須不斷地讓電晶體變得越來越小。這就是為什麼，我們已經將電晶體從微米級別，從你可以在光學顯微鏡下觀察的大小，到現在的2奈米、3奈米的大小。我的天，你知道，你需要非常高功率的電子顯微鏡才能看到。無論如何，這個方法程在過去的50、60年中奇蹟般地有效。
However, that course looks like it’s near the end also from the size that you could look at under an optical microscope to the present size of 2 nanometers, 3 nanometers. My goodness, you know, you need very high-power electron microscopes to look at. Because physically, you know, we’re pretty close to atomic size already. And you can’t get smaller than atom. Anyway, very small. So that course is at the end. However, there’s another course we can follow. That is, even if we can’t make the chips any denser, we can make them less energy-consumptive. We can, you know, more energy-efficient. And that’s the course we are following now.
然而，這個發展進程看起來即將結束。因為從物理角度來看，我們已經接近原子大小了。而你不能比原子更小。無論如何，非常小。然而，我們還有別的方向可以選擇，即使我們無法使晶片變得更密集，我們也可以使它們消耗更少的能量，更加節能。這就是我們現在正在遵循的路線。
張忠謀談領導力
Ida Liu
So I would be remiss if I didn’t ask Dr. Chang and Joe leadership traits because I’m sure we’re all in this room waiting to hear your guidance and your observations on what characteristics young individuals need today to be successful future leaders.
所以如果我不問張博士和Joe關於領導特質，我會感到非常遺憾，因為我確定所有在這個房間裡的人，都在想聽到你們分享若年輕人想要成為成功的領導者，將會需要哪些特質。
Morris Chang
Well, I think that they need to first of all, they need to establish a knowledge base. I’m a believer of the so-called knowledge pyramid. First you gain information. But if you think about the information that you have enough, then it becomes your own. It becomes knowledge. Knowledge is something that you own, really. And then if you think about your knowledge enough, you begin to gain insight. And that’s the higher level. That’s another higher level of the information pyramid. And then you also have to develop this pyramid in different fields. Because nowadays, if you just know a technical field, it’s not enough. You have to know other things. You have to know business strategy. You even have to know geopolitics.
我認為他們首先需要建立一個知識基礎。我是所謂的知識金字塔的信奉者。首先，你獲取資訊。但如果你認為你已經有足夠的資訊，那麼它就變成了你自己的。它變成了知識。知識是你真正擁有的東西。然後，如果你對自己的知識進行深思，你將開始獲得洞察。這是更高層次。這是資訊金字塔的另一個更高層次。然後，你還必須在不同的領域中發展這個金字塔。因為如今，僅懂得一個技術領域是不夠的。你必須了解其他事物，你必須了解商業策略，你甚至需要了解地緣政治。
So all these together are several pyramids. And each pyramid you build up to a certain level of competence or a certain level of expertise. And then you combine these, you start to have a vision, a viable vision. You’re asking me about leaders, right? I think that leaders have to do this. Get a vision. And then, of course, you have to persuade people to follow you. I think it’s as simple as that.
所以，這些總和起來就是幾個金字塔。而你在每個金字塔中都需要建立到一定的能力水平或專業知識水平。然後你將這些結合起來，你開始有了一個願景，一個可行的願景。你問我關於領導者的問題，對吧？我認為領導者必須做到這一點。獲得一個願景。然後，當然，你必須說服人們跟隨你。我認為就是這麼簡單。
蔡崇信談領導力
Joe Tsai
So I think in order to be a good leader, I’ll say three words. Intellect, EQ, and humility. Intellect is a combination of aptitude and hard work. I didn’t get perfect SAT scores, but I tried to learn as much as possible on new subjects and things like that. So Dr. Chang talked about knowledge building. You have to have that basic level of knowledge and intellect in order to get respect from the people that you’re trying to lead.
所以我認為要成為一個好的領導者，我會說三個詞。智力、情商和謙卑。智力是才能和努力的結合。我並未獲得完美的SAT分數，但我嘗試盡可能多地學習新的主題和事物。所以張博士談到了知識的建立。你必須具備基本的知識水平和智力，才能獲得你試圖領導的人的尊重。
The next thing, EQ, I think as a leader, what are you leading? You’re not leading machines. You’re leading people. So you need to deal with people. And I think the most important sort of skill set is to convince other people to do things that they don’t want to do, but you want them to do. So you have to have a lot of EQ to do that. And finally, humility is very important. I’ve said this many times before, so you might have heard. If you get tired, just let me know. But Jack Welch used to say that you have to have the humility to hire people smarter than you are, to bring people into the company that are more talented, smarter. Because Jack Welch said A people hire other A people, B people hire C people. You have a lot of managers that are insecure about themselves, so they end up not hiring very good talent because they feel threatened all the time. Leaders can’t do that. Leaders have to hire people that are smarter than they are. And if they feel like they have to be the smartest person in the room all the time, it’s not a good leader.
下一個要點是情商（EQ）。作為一名領導者，你領導的是什麼？你不是在領導機器，你是在領導人。所以你需要應對人。我認為最重要的一組技能是說服其他人去做他們不想做，但你希望他們做的事情。因此，你必須具有很高的情商才能做到這一點。最後，謙遜非常重要。我之前多次提到過這一點，你可能曾經聽過，傑克・韋爾奇（前GE執行長）曾經說過，你必須具有足夠的謙遜去聘請比你更聰明的人，讓更有才華、更聰明的人加入公司。因為傑克·韋爾奇說，A類人才會聘請其他A類人才，B類人才會聘請C類人才。有很多不自信的經理，因為他們一直感到受威脅，所以最終沒有聘請到非常好的人才。領導者不能這樣做。領導者必須聘請比他們更聰明的人。如果他們覺得自己必須一直是房間裡最聰明的人，那就不是一個好的領導者。
蔡崇信分享自己的體育背景
Ida Liu
Well, thank you both so much for the pearls of wisdom. That was incredibly insightful and helpful, the pyramid, and all of the wonderful comments that you’ve made too, Joe. And I particularly resonate with the EQ. You don’t hear enough leaders talking about the importance of EQ and humility. So very, very much resonates. I’m going to pivot now, Joe, to sports.
非常感謝你們兩位的智慧，這真的非常有洞見且有幫助，你們提到知識的金字塔，還有其他精彩的建議，我對情商特別有共鳴。你不常聽到領導者談論情商和謙卑的重要性。我現在要轉向體育話題了，Joe。
Morris Chang
Brooklyn Nets.
籃網隊。
Joe Tsai
This is more relaxing for me.
這對我來說更為放鬆。
Ida Liu
We have the San Diego Seals, the Brooklyn Nets. So what made you foray into sports?
我們有聖地牙哥海豹隊，布魯克林籃網隊。那麼，是什麼讓你踏入體育界的？
Joe Tsai
Yeah. I actually think this is very interesting. In this country, in America, Asians are not well-known to be sports figures, right? Other than Jeremy Lin, I don’t think you can name another Asian athlete in this country. And so I get that question a lot from people like, Joe, why are you involved in sports? You’re not supposed to. Like the subtext is you’re not supposed to be involved in sports. Well, I happen to be very passionate about sports. I was an athlete when I was very young. When I was growing up in Taiwan, we had baseball and dodgeball.
是的。我其實覺得這非常有趣。在這個國家，美國，亞洲人並不被眾所周知是體育界的人物，對吧？除了林書豪，我想你可能無法再說出這個國家的另一位亞洲運動員。所以我經常被人問到，Joe，你為什麼要參與體育活動？你不應該參與。就像潛台詞是你不應該參與體育活動。嗯，我碰巧對體育非常有熱情。我在非常年輕的時候就是一名運動員。當我在台灣長大時，我們有棒球和躲避球。
Ida Liu
Did you play?
你有玩過嗎？
Joe Tsai
No, not like the movie Dodgeball. But those of you who grew up in Taiwan understand exactly what I’m talking about. So when I got to the US, I went to an all-boys boarding school. So the only way I could sort of get people to accept me, accept it into the community, was to play a lot of sports because that’s how you get respect. Not in the classroom. I was better than everyone else in math, but I didn’t get respect that way. I got respect on the football field. So I played American football in high school. And then I picked up lacrosse because I was cut from the baseball team. So that’s my background in sports.
不，並不是像電影《躲避球》那樣。但是在台灣長大的你們肯定完全明白我在說什麼。所以當我來到美國，我進入了一所全男生的寄宿學校。因此，我唯一能讓人們接受我，讓我融入社區的方式，就是要獲得尊重，我必須參與許多運動。這在教室裡無法達成，即便我在數學方面超越所有人，但並未因此獲得尊重，我在足球場上得到尊重。所以我在高中時期參與了美式足球。然後，因為被棒球隊剔除，我開始接觸壘球，這就是我在運動方面的背景。
Joe Tsai
And getting into the Brooklyn Nets was actually just serendipity. I had never dreamt of growing up to own a sports team, a professional sport team, of the magnitude like a team in the NBA. But it just came along as an opportunity the more I looked at it. Basically, to own a major professional sports league team in the United States is like owning a rare asset. It’s like owning that Park Avenue apartment, penthouse apartment on Park Avenue. The value is not going to go down. You’re not going to make a lot of operating cash flow, but when you do sell it, the value will appreciate most likely. So knowing that economically, my downside was protected. That’s what motivated me to sort of jump in and sort of pursue my passion.
而我加入布魯克林籃網隊實際上只是意外的機遇。我從未夢想過長大後會擁有一支像NBA這樣規模的專業運動隊伍，但這只是隨著我對它的了解越來越多，這個機會就出現了。基本上，在美國擁有一支主要的專業運動聯賽隊伍就像擁有一項稀有資產。這就像擁有公園大道上的公寓，公園大道上的頂樓公寓。價值不會下降。你不會有大量的營運現金流，但當你賣出它時，價值很可能會升值。所以，知道在經濟上，我的損失已經得到保護。那就是激勵我投身並追求我的熱情的原因。
張忠謀表示中美脫鉤讓他晚上睡不好
Ida Liu
Wonderful. Well, we have time for just one last question. The time has flown by already, but I’m going to ask the question to both of you, and we’ll start with you, Dr. Chang. What is one thing that keeps you up at night, and what is one thing you’re super optimistic about in the future?
太棒了。好的，我們只有時間提出最後一個問題。時間過得飛快，但我將向你們兩位提問，我們先從你開始，張博士。有什麼事情讓你夜不能寐，又有什麼事情讓你對未來充滿極度的樂觀呢？
Morris Chang
Well, the one thing that I don’t think anything keeps me up at night. But what comes the closest to keeping me up at night is the first topic that we discussed this afternoon. Which is, you know, decoupling, and it looks like countries are mad at each other. And that worries me. Most optimistic? I really think that this country, which is my country, the United States, is still, you know, the hope of the world, I think. That’s in spite of all the problems we’re having. But I think it still is a shining example in the world.
嗯，我認為沒有任何事情會讓我夜不能寐。但是最讓我夜不能寐的，恐怕就是我們今天下午討論的第一個議題。也就是，你知道的，脫鉤，看起來各國都在彼此生氣。這讓我擔憂。最樂觀的？我真的認為這個國家，也就是我的國家，美國，仍然是，你知道，世界的希望，我認為。這是儘管我們面臨所有的問題。但我認為它仍然是世界上的一個閃耀的例子。
蔡崇信表達對中美脫鉤的擔憂
Ida Liu
And Joe, your thoughts?
那麼，Joe，你的想法呢？
Joe Tsai
Dr. Chang mentioned Graham Allison. So, six years ago, after he wrote the book, Destined for War, The Thucydides Trap, he went to Beijing, and I went to hear him speak. And at the time, the question was, what keeps people up at night? What do you worry about in terms of a hot conflict? You know what people said? They didn’t say US-China, because that was still at the very beginning of the US-China conflict. They said North Korea. And now, we’re in the middle of a hot war, two hot wars, but they’re very complicated things with a lot of history behind it. But that’s what I worry about. And I hope that the two largest economies in the world don’t somehow accidentally or by purpose get into a hot conflict.
Russian-Ukraine and Israel-Hamas. It’s so, the world is very dangerous and so unpredictable. The point I’m trying to make is, you know, I worry about these hot conflicts. And I don’t have the answer to how to resolve these conflicts,
張博士提到了格雷厄姆・艾里森（Graham Allison）。六年前他寫了《注定一戰：修昔底德陷阱》後，他去了北京，我也去聽了他的演講。當時的問題是，什麼讓人們夜不能寐？你對哪種熱衝突最擔心？你知道人們當時說什麼嗎？他們沒有說美中關係，因為那時美中矛盾還處於非常初期的階段。他們說的是北韓。而現在，我們正處於兩場熱戰之中，俄羅斯-烏克蘭和以色列-哈馬斯。世界現在非常危險，也非常不可預測。我想要表達的觀點是，我對這些熱衝突非常擔憂。我也不知道如何解決這些衝突。但這些都是有著很多歷史背景的很複雜的事情。但這就是我所擔心的。我希望世界上最大的兩個經濟體不要因為意外或故意而陷入熱衝突。
結尾：對未來的期待
Ida Liu
And let’s end on an optimistic note. What are you excited for the future about?
讓我們以樂觀的心情結束吧。你對未來有什麼期待呢？
Joe Tsai
I’m excited about, you know, so I’ve been doing a lot of traveling. Been back in China since COVID. I have family in the United States. I have kids that go to school here. I’ve just been to Europe and the Middle East. What I’m optimistic about is that, generally speaking, people want peace and stability and an environment to do business and have prosperity. And these conflicts, I know that there’s a lot of extremism out there.
I mean, we should do everything to try to stamp out extremist elements. But I still believe 99% of the people around the world are peace-loving and want to have prosperity for everybody, not just only for themselves.
我對此感到非常興奮，你知道，所以我一直在做很多旅行。自從COVID以來，我回到了中國。我在美國有家人。我有孩子在這裡上學。我剛去過歐洲和中東。我所樂觀的是，一般來說，人們都希望和平穩定，並有一個可以做生意並繁榮昌盛的環境。我知道這些衝突中存在許多極端主義，但大多數人都希望和平。我們應該盡一切可能去消滅極端主義元素。但我仍然相信，全世界99%的人都熱愛和平，並希望每個人都能繁榮，而不僅僅是他們自己。
Ida Liu
Ladies and gentlemen, the extraordinary Dr. Morris Chang and Joe Tsai. Let’s give them a round of applause. Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you all for attending. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
女士們，先生們，非凡的張忠謀博士和蔡崇信先生。讓我們給他們一個熱烈的掌聲。非常感謝你們兩位能來這裡。感謝所有出席的人。非常感謝你。謝謝你。謝謝你。
- 張忠謀1984年在通用儀器（General Instruments）擔任總裁，為期1年 ↩︎
- 指哈佛教授格雷厄姆・艾利森（Graham Allison）所著的《注定一戰？中美能否避免修昔底德陷阱》（Destined for War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides’s Trap?），艾利森為美國哈佛大學甘迺迪政府學院貝爾福科學和國際問題研究中心（Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs）主任。 ↩︎
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